Am I safe to buy a Cheetah, get IFR and build 200 hours then sell -- or will I get bored before then and wish I would have waited for a Tiger? Enter your email and click on the I am a I'll PM you another one. It's faster than a 172 and carries about the same load (typically about 800-850 lb useful), but is not as tolerant of grass or extremely short runways. Go (I'm at Hollywood aviation in the plane ports. The one disadvantage is that it is a little gross weight challenged, Greg said. Please head over to our new home at the Pilots Place Forum. ). Seemed like a decent plane. You should know that, despite the above, there are possibly more similarities than differences between the Cessna 172 and the Cessna 150. The 172 is basically the big sister to the 152-it's a nearly identical airframe, just larger in every dimension to hold four people. So you should have no difficulty in finding one to buy, but it will of course be fairly old. If you had a Tiger without the autopilot, its not going to be quite as stable as a 172 or a 182. Bill & Carol Scott, who own the high-compression STC, don't have the resources to do the full testing and certification protocol themselves, so the modified Cheetah is artificially limited to 157 hp to conform to the original specs. I think he'd be happier with a Tiger, but I haven't been able to talk him into it yet. The four-place Grumman AA-5 family might be one of the better-kept secrets, offering the simplicity of a Cessna 172 while approaching the cruise speed of a similarly powered Mooney. The Cessna 150 was discontinued in 1977. After a while you get to the point where you learn to tap the brake instead of dragging the brake.". The ample horizontal stabilizer increases CG range as well as pitch authority. AA-5 prices can vary widely, but when we exclude the most extreme examples in a recent sampling of listings, the majority fall in the $30,000 to $60,000 range. He enjoys researching obscure aviation history and serves as a judge for the National Intercollegiate Flying Association. Additionally, the castering nosewheel is a simpler and lighter design than those used in most Cessnas and Pipers. It continued to look good until it was sold. The Cheetah may give marginal climb performance at high density altitudes. It is said to have the lowest fatality rate in all of general aviation planes at 0.56 per 100,000 flying hours. Depending on how much exposure it has to the sun, it will need to be replaced generally about every 25 to 30 years. Enter your Username and Password to log in. The Cessna 172. Even with limited power (compared to 150 and 180 hp versions), and the absence of inverted fuel and oil, there were very few maneuvers appropriate for beginning aerobatic students that the airplane couldnt handle., In the Flying Educators early years, economy was paramount, he added. One maintainer reports that the majority of incidents he sees are a result of runway overruns that began with excessive speed on final approach. login you will see the new forum. In the AG-5B, the 12-volt electrical system was replaced with a 24-volt system, and the refresh included several minor systems and aerodynamic improvements, plus improved corrosion coating. Through various ownership changes, such as Bellanca and now American Champion Aircraft Corporation, the simple, well-liked design has continued on with additional variations being produced such as the Decathlon and Scout. Three or four of the 10 members would use it for aerobatics a lot. Greg said. I know better. 2. Both are inexpensive to operate and maintai. It's kinda underpowered for what we were doing with it, luckily no one was heavy and the distances weren't far. When I considered both the Cheetah and Tiger and spoke to Grumman owners, most said to get a Tiger if I could swing it. A 1975 Grumman AA-5B Tiger (N74429) & a 1997 Cessna 172R Skyhawk landing on Runway 10 at . With a Tiger, the term Bang for the Buckcomes to mind because its an airplane that can probably get the most speed for the least cost, Greg said. Useful load on most of Tigers I've seen run in 900-950lb range. human checkbox, which will verify that you are indeed a human. The second part is correct, but the first is not. Among the most valuable resources available to Grumman owners are the bustling owners groups. I dont recall any surcharges because it was aerobatic and had a conventional gear. Aero on Demand, a Houston-based club, also operates a Tiger and it is equipped with an engine monitor providing very accurate data. It burns 7 gph and the clubcharges $86 an hour. They are both basically a means to make aerial journeys, designed for touring or simply pleasure flying. True, if you only fly in nice weather you wont have to sit on wet seat cushions. Helen is an expert in all things aviation! What are real world numbers for these two at 75%? 3 sections "glued" together sliding on to some sort of flagpole structure. The Cessna 172 is a lot more powerful than the Cessna 150. The hull is insured at $65,000 with $1 million liability. Not quite ready to buy yet, but for the right deal https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/grumman-gang, Santa Rosita State Park, under the big 'W', E38F0B5E-2ED1-4B77-ADA8-8CE1FC154C26.jpeg, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. As of this writing, 13 examples are listed at a median price of $48,500, with a median airframe time of 3,500 hours. ". Tiger owners report cruise speeds of 125 to 133 knots at 8.5 to 10 gallons per hour, while owners with 160 hp Cheetahs fly about 10 knots slower with a slightly lower fuel burn. New and experienced pilots alike enjoy Grummans fiberglass main gear, describing it as robust and forgiving. The club usesAvemcoand pays $6,000 a year, but Greg noted that Florida is an expensivestate in whichto insure an aircraft because of hurricanes and the fact the state is highly litigious. It is, nevertheless, an item to confirm during a pre-purchase inspection. Every Cessna 172 or Cherokee 140 I fly with is quickly left in the dust by a good 10 to 15 knots. But in the mid-90s, they decided to make a change[see this months Club Spotlight]. Man erkennt eine AG-5B auch am T-frmigen Gashebel. Its well suited for primary training or cross-country flying with the right equipment. Attention Cessna 172 Club Members! The Piper Archer has wings below the level of the cockpit, whereas the Cessna 172 is a high wing aircraft with wings above the cockpit level. That phrase sort of confuses me. With a fuel burn at cruise of around 5 GPH, she does better than my Chevy S10. If so did he sell it after 2 or 3 years and get into a twin? The Flying Educators did routine maintenance and annuals in-house with little difficulty, Greg said. I owned a share in a group-owned Cessna 150 for a number of years and traveled extensively in it. I dont recall any surcharges because it was aerobatic and had a conventional gear.. But being a little more impartial, I would have to choose the Cessna 172, in particular the more recent models. Since it is a tube and fabric airplane, its best to keep it in a hangar. 2023 The Grumman Owners and Pilots Association. Are they pretty much the same? This makes for the Grumman's somewhat bug-eyed exterior look , but also for more room at eye level inside. Krish discussed having to change some avionics, propeller, engine cowling, and after 300 hours of flying him and his partners also had to overhaul the 180hp engine, which cost a whopping $28,000. They are faster, handle more crisply, have a nice sliding canopy, and are a bit more unusual than offerings from other aircraft in their class from Cessna, Piper and Beech . Depends. This effectively provides Tiger speed and climb performance at the price closer to that of a Cheetah. The Cessna 172 has a larger engine, and so is correspondingly more powerful, and it has a higher cruise speed. A number of Cheetahs can be found equipped with the 180 hp O-360, which is available as an STC. The seats move further forward in the more modern versions of the Cessna 172, but even so, I find it easier to fly the Cessna 150, where everything is within easy reach. , The specs list the cruise speed at 139 knots, but Greg said the. You can literally fly with your pinkies.. One operator I flew for we had a Traveller as a run around plane to gather guys in from remote strips (cheaper to fly it than the Ag planes if they need to be there tomorrow). Everybody was used to flyingCitabrias, which as you know is fully aerobatic, Greg said. The Cessna 172 is a lot more powerful than the Cessna 150. Externally the Tiger looked much like the AA-5 Traveler and AA-5A Cheetah so once again Grumman's marketing department came up with a distinctive decal package to differentiate the design this time a "galloping tiger". your fairchild is also glued together and older than that. With a power setting of 2550 rpm to 2600 rpm, Mike usually cruises between 135 and 138 knots. Approximately half are ADS-B-compliant, and most have midtime engines. , The main parts supplier for Grumman aircraft is an outfit called Fletch Air, and I think theyre based in Houston, he said. This quote has been neglected and underrated for years now . And a little more economically., Mike from Aero on Demand added, Besides the RV, its the fastest 180-hp airplane out there with a fixed-pitch prop. Both of these aircraft are made by Cessna and are fairly similar when it comes to flying. It will carry four people and luggage, and you have a wide choice, from completely new models to budget-priced much older ones. Get the Tiger, you local flights will get boring after 100 hours and you'll want to stretch out to further destinations. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by BellyUpFish, Aug 29, 2011. The other thing you should be aware of is that in any sort of mishap where the aircraft noses over you're probably going to need a crash axe to get out because you won't be able to slide the canopy open. The Citabria breed has an AD requiring a one-time inspection of the wooden spar where they have to check it for cracks. Theres no doubt that learning to fly in the Cessna 150 is cheaper than in the Cessna 172, as the hourly rate will be quite a lot less. AA-5B Tiger. I hang my head in shame. If you dont have an existing login on the Cessna 172 Club The Cessna 172 is a lot heavier and more powerful than the Cessna 150, and when I did this conversion I found the Cessna 172 difficult to manage at first. What do I need to do? many destinations within a 500-mile radius, including the Bahamas. There should be few problems with maintenance for either of these aircraft types. If not, then which is best? Id take a Tiger or a Cheetah over a 172, every day of the week. If you currently have an account on Pilots Place, your Generally they comment on how easy they are to fly, and claim that they have few problems of any type. Seriously, the acquisition cost is the least of his worries. Owners of both these aircraft types usually like them a lot. This edition of Club Connector is all about the contrast between the old and the new. Greg noted that on a namedpolicyyoull pay a premium based on your least experienced pilot. They can provide anything for the airplanewheels, wheel pants, windshields, cowlings, anything you need for a Tiger or similar Grumman aircraftthey can provide., Greg said the club didnt have any problem renewing its insurance with. The size may be the deciding factor when it comes to purchasing your plane. I've never heard anyone say the sliding canopy leaks. Even with limited power (compared to 150 and 180 hp versions), and the absence of inverted fuel and oil, there were very few maneuvers appropriate for beginning aerobatic students that the airplane couldnt handle.. Accordingly, AA-5s are quick to convert a light nudge of the yoke into an instant change in attitude. There is a beautiful Grumman at my airport for sale. Considering pre-flight, trip time, rides to and from airports, etc., it was faster driving on any trip less than about 200 miles. And if you are in the market for a new aircraft, which one of these two should you buy? Small ruder for X wind landing, more than one landed on nose wheel and met their demise not that other aircraft don't. Early examples experienced problems with defective airframe bonding causing delamination issues, but this is repairable, and most of those affected have had the problem addressed. Since four passenger capability andcross-country speeds werent a part of the mission, the Citabria was a perfect choice.. Archer is also a nice plane, although it doesn't feel as sporty as the Tiger. Grumman Tiger. Nope. Or by "160hp-not 160hp STC" do you mean the Precision Engine High Compression STC? Moving to the Grumman Tiger meant they could have a four-place aircraft better suited for cross-country travel and still have a plane that was responsive. In the year or two Greg was in the club while it operated the Citabria, there were no new members without prior tailwheel experience. Private and Commercial helicopter licenses and Instructor Rating were quickly added to her resume. The sliding, glass-rich canopy can be flown partially open in flight, adding to the pilots unique experience in this series. We have It is about the same in terms of safety as other similar light aircraft. Load carrying capability. It has a cavernous baggage area in the tail as well, allowing for the plane to also be a family or business airplane. That wood isn't 50 years old and it is glued to a steel frame including a roll cage cabin. The main differences between the Piper Archer and Cessna 172 are: The Piper Archer has only one door on the right-hand side for access, whereas the Cessna 172 has two doors on each side of the aircraft. At the end of the day, Greg noted that most members fly solo or with only one passenger and, for that reason, the airplane has to be fun to fly, and it is. Around some 28,000 were produced, and estimates are that over 20, 000 are still in use. Grumman Tiger over taking Cessna 150 at + 50 kts. Join Us | Member Benefits |News| Events |Contact Us. But that is what most private pilots prefer to do. It will also carry more weight, as mentioned above. All was in order etc, just don't know much about the plane. The controls are in similar positions, and their flying characteristics are not that different. And its either retractable, more horse power or probably both, OR AN RV which won't carry nearly as much. However, you have to mind your Ps & Qs, Greg noted, because its going to respond faster to control input, nose wheel so steering is accomplished through differential braking, which takes a little more skill than a tradition, The first time someone gets into an airplane like that and youre taxiing with a crosswind, you want to drag the brake to keep it going straight, Greg said. So if you plan to take the family on holiday or something similar, the Cessna 172 is probably what you will need. I toured all of Europe in one of these, with a friend. Still, I think the additional climb rate of the Tiger makes it a better choice, even if speed is not a major concern. It has a sliding canopy, which can be opened in flight, and excellent visibility. Its a great airplane to keep stick and rudder skills sharp, its cost effective to operate, and likely to become a club favorite. The Cessna 172, on the other hand, is still being produced. Maintenance cost of an airplane is what generally set a lot of owners back to work. Thank you for being a part of the Cessna 172 Club! Although the airplane hasnt been manufactured for quite some time, Greg said parts are easy to get. Its nimble in the air, seats four, and has a good cruising speed with minimal fuel burn. The later versions produced in the 1990s and 2000s will cost a bit more with prices in the $75,000 to $100,000 range. The Flying Educators Tiger has a two-axis autopilot so it frequently flies under IFR. Aero on Demand, a Houston-based club, also operates a Tiger and it is equipped with an engine monitor providing very accurate data. Now Krish does have 3 other partners who own the airplane with him. Huge windows, plus the top of the glareshield is low. I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. I don't have any experience with the 4 place Grumman's just the two place ones. Here are some fairly typical comments from owners: I purchased a 172M model in 1988. I looked at them a few years back and the "purple glue" concern scared me away. Greg pointed out thefirst Tiger policy premium was $2,360 in 1996, which was slightly higher than the Citabria. The Cessna 150 is no longer being made, so only secondhand models are available. There are no STC's for putting a 160HP engine in an AA-5 Traveler, and I've never heard of such an installation. Our Citabria wasnt re-covered during the time Flying Educators owned it, Greg said. It continued to look good until it was sold. $37.09 + $15.58 shipping . Wouldnt mind having it myself! Theres also a lot of wood in the Citabria, like under the seats, that needs to be inspected,andthere can be rusty tubes in the tail. send a link to set up your password on the Pilots Place site, and when you The cockpit of the Cessna 150 is very cramped. I don't think 150 nm is enough distance to justify flying. Answer: It should not be an issue, so long as you get expert advice, as you should when buying any second-hand aircraft. The club uses, and pays $6,000 a year, but Greg noted that Florida is an expensive, to insure an aircraft because of hurricanes and the fact the state is highly litigious. Since it is a tube and fabric airplane, its best to keep it in a hangar. When we're not in the air, we're here helping others how to join us here at Aviator Insider. And what was involved in getting it approved? Combined with a panoramic canopy, nimble handling, relatively modest prices and thriving owners groups, the resulting blend of strengths makes these Grummans intriguing options for new and experienced owners alike. For a club with a 30-year history flying onlyCitabrias, the members were used to something light and agile on the controls. Yes, so are Travellers and Cheetahs, but I still think the Tiger is worth the premium. Every time I think of trading up, I have a hard time thinking of selling a really good airplane , The Cessna 150 is the best simple and economical airplane one could ask to own. moved! Topping the range is the AA-5B Tiger, which entered production as a 1975 model and differed from the Cheetah primarily by being equipped with the more powerful 180 hp Lycoming O-360. Free shipping . It will keep up with an Arrow. The Citabria wins this category over the Tiger without question. That was its strong suit.. With a fixed-pitch propeller and fixed gear, it is simple to operate. The Citabria is a derivative of the Aeronca Champ and was first produced in 1964 by Champion Aircraft Corporation. However, the fun-factor overrode practicality from time to time.. Very rugged, durable and dependable. Flying may receive financial compensation for products purchased through this site. And, if you are doing aerobatics, you need parachutes that need to be repacked regularly, which would add a cost. The Citabria is a derivative of the Aeronca Champ and was first produced in 1964 by Champion Aircraft Corporation. Like any aerodynamically efficient airframe, proper speed management is important on approach and landing. Insurance companies are all familiar with both these aircraft, so their charges are likely to be reasonable. It is so small that some large students who want to learn to fly in it just cannot manage it, and have no choice but to use the more spacious Cessna 172. The clubwanted an airplane better suited for cross-country travelandthey settled on the Grumman AA5B Tiger. Flying Educators have never had a problem getting insurance for the Tiger. But in the mid-90s, they decided to make a change. News From HQ: Old, New, and You. First flown in 1955, more 172s have been built than any other aircraft. AA-5 Traveler & AA-5A Cheetah Competitive Comparison, AA-5B & AG-5B Tiger Competitive Comparison, Pilot Familiarization Program Instructors. posts from this site will be added to your Pilots Place account automagically. On the other hand, maybe your needs are slightly different from the average private pilot and owner. If your club is looking for an economical aircraft that can serve as a primary trainer and a solid cross-country platformwith good performance, the Grumman Tiger is a plane you may want to consider. But the Cessna 150 is not unsafe by any means. For more than 30 years, the 10-member club owned a Citabria. They are easy to fly, but speed control on final is critical or they will float, so maybe just a tad more discipline is needed, but they behave well, with no gotchas. During climb and cruise, an AA-5 pilot would be well-advised to closely monitor cylinder-head temperatures, which can run high. Please head over to our new home at the Pilot s Place Forum. So whats not to like? https://thepilotsplace.com/contact.html. CTAF audio is included. . Its well suite, Grumman produced the AA5B Tiger from 1975 through 1979, and then American General produced the AG5B Tiger from 1991 through 1993. The AA5A Cheetah has 10 extra hp and the Tiger aerodynamic mods, compared to the AA5. So this might well decide things for you. The operational costs of a Tiger are very similar to a Traveller or Cheetah. According to Greg, the 115-hpCitabria burned about 5 to 6 gph, making it economical to operate. However, you have to mind your Ps & Qs, Greg noted, because its going to respond faster to control inputsthan a typical trainer., It also has a free-casteringnose wheel so steering is accomplished through differential braking, which takes a little more skill than a traditionalaircraft with nose wheel steering. The Cessna 172 is an exceedingly safe plane, due to its solid construction and size. Gulfstream ceased production of all piston-engined aircraft in 1979 and the highly successful Tiger design went out of production after 1323 aircraft had been delivered. If your club is looking for an economical aircraft that can serve as a primary trainer and a solid cross-country platform. UBB Message. She's published several books and articles on all things aviation and is eager to continue sharing her knowledge! The nosewheel looks flimsy but I spoke to a former Grumman pilot that says they are quite sturdy. Does he have it on Barnstormers, Trade a Plane etc. Handling is much better, I think, with lighter roll and pitch forces, and better-harmonized controls as well as a quicker roll rate. You solo it from thefront so youve got good visibility, and, like the Champ it is derived from, it is an easy, forgiving airplane. Devoid of rivets and corrugated aluminum, its the secret behind the AA-5s speed. Unless you want to go off airport. For a club with a 30-year history flying only. One of the challenges is finding instructors who can teach in it whether its tailwheel or aerobatic. Find more About Us here! Insurance premiums went from over $3,000 in 2002 to over $6,000 in 2010. The Tiger was designed by Grumman engineers and was first produced in late 1974 as the 1975 model. Bill & Carol Scott, who own the high-compression STC, don't have the resources to do the full testing and certification protocol themselves, so the modified Cheetah is artificially limited to 157 hp to conform to the original specs. Although the airplane hasnt been manufactured for quite some time, Greg said parts are easy to get. Through various ownership changes, such as Bellanca and now American Champion Aircraft Corporation, the simple, well-liked design has continued on with additional variations being produced such as the Decathlon and Scout. The Tiger I fly is 900lbs. If you touch it, its going to move an aileron or elevator, Mike said. L14. They have an unnamed policy, meaning they dont have to list their members or their flight time, so anyone who joins the club is insured. Cessna 172. If your club wants to offer something different yet cost effective, a Citabria can help attract members who want to earn a tailwheel endorsement or do some aerobatic flying. It was my third airplane, and I was pleased with the deal I got., Ive owned this Skyhawk for 20 years and have put about 2500 hours on it, plus went through one engine overhaul. It also makes a nice IFR-platform if it is properly equipped. I was gonna ask him the same thing. We are a collective group of airline instructors, and pilots dedicated to all things aviation. Helen has worked as an instructor for several years, flying throughout Europe and the US. The Grumman Pilots Association and Grumman Gang are additional resources, and enthusiastic support is available to the owner community in the form of online forums and video tutorials. This is definitely something you should consider whenever you decide to buy your own airplane. In 1976, the AA-5 Traveler was replaced with the AA-5A Cheetah. If it is a new paint job people have got stripper in the joints remember this plane is glued together and stripper in the glue is bad, make sure this did not happen. If you fly a Tiger for 20 or 30 hours and get into a Cessna 172, it feels like a truck., You cant go wrong with either a Citabria or a Grumman Tiger in your club. 1976 Cessna Skyhawk 172 Pilot's Operating Handbook, POH Manual - Used . The four-place Grumman AA-5 family might be one of the better-kept secrets, offering the simplicity of a Cessna 172 while approaching the cruise speed of a similarly powered Mooney. It all comes down to what your mission is. Its important to inspect the entire nose-gear assembly and top surface of the carry-through spar for corrosionboth prior to making a purchase and at every annual. Your login, avatars, posts and archives have all be relocated there. the Forgot Password link. Our 115-hpCitabriawas a fun, inexpensive aircraft that provided very stable air and ground handling for lower time pilots and entry-level aerobatic capabilities for more experienced pilots, Greg said. Many products featured on this site were editorially chosen. It could also be used for simple aerobatic training things like aileron rolls, loops, spins, and upset recovery. In the early 90s up to the when the Flying Educators sold the Citabria in 1995, the hourly rate was $21 wet, and the monthly club dues were $42. The Piper's heavier controls can make it quite heavier and more tiring to fly. assistance. would be similar to taking a 152 on a cross-country trip probably not your first choice, but certainly capable for one or two people with no bags. . However, I would buy the plane just for fun. I've never heard anyone say the sliding canopy leaks. All rights reserved. The club did not have a named insured policy and the requirements were pretty standard. Jason McDowell is a private pilot and Cessna 170 owner based in Madison, Wisconsin. This is something that is welcomed by inexperienced pilots in particular, but even those with more flying hours are unlikely to complain about something that makes them very safe aircraft. Its super tight on the controls. If it is a new paint job people have got stripper in the joints remember this plane is glued together and stripper in the glue is bad, make sure this did not happen. Canopy is great when taxiing in the summer and in the pattern. Its roll rate is faster than a Piper or Cessna. Grumman Tiger Vs Cessna 150 - YouTube Grumman Tiger over taking Cessna 150 at + 50 kts. Some pilots do not, since although they can see really well beneath the aircraft in the cruise, visibility in the circuit/pattern can be difficult. With relatively few problem areas, ADs or areas of concern with regard to flying characteristics, the AA-5 family checks many of the boxes required to earn its place as an approachable aircraft. People tend to step on the seats just a problem of not knowing how to get in the plane, I believe the wing is a time life item and the end of the plane. Its hard to beat a tandem seat aerobatic aircraft when it comes to fun. Additionally, the airplane can be flown with a partially open canopy, which improves the experience even further. A number of these became known as Gulfstream Americans when Gulfstream bought the Grumman line and sold them through 1979. Accordingly, a good, reliable engine-monitoring system is a wise investment, and with the proper adapter, savvy buyers can download engine-monitor data to observe how a seller has been treating the engine. The Cessna 150-152 and light taildraggers have been the stalwarts of basic, entry-level aviation. Guy has over 100K in it and he is selling for 57K. Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by SixPapaCharlie, Dec 14, 2015. The Tiger has a published book cruise speed of 139 knots but owners generally plan on real-world speeds of 130 to 138 knots. Youre going to get more airspeed out of a Tiger than youre going to get out of most four-place aircraft in that category, Greg said.
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