It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. Radiolab will continue in a moment. SUZANNE SIMARD: Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. Begins with a woman. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. They definitely don't have a brain. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. And she says she began to notice things that, you know, one wouldn't really expect. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . The plants -- the plants stopped -- what is it they did? SUZANNE SIMARD: And we were able to map the network. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. Isn't that what you do? Fan, light, lean. Listen to one of these podcasts: (Read the summaries and choose the one you want) Radiolab - Update: CRISPR Radiolab - Cellmates Radiolab - Shrink Radiolab - From Tree to Shining Tree Radiolab - Antibodies Part 1: CRISPR Radiolab - Galapagos Radiolab - Smarty Plants Radiolab - Super Cool For the main post please include: Title They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. ROBERT: But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. If you look at these particles under the microscope, you can see the little tunnels. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. The bell, the meat and the salivation. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Is that what -- is that what this? Little white threads attached to the roots. And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. If she's going to do this experiment, most likely she's going to use cold water. ROBERT: These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. The tree has a lot of sugar. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. We were waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. Because tree roots and a lot of plant roots are not actually very good at doing what you think they're doing. It's gone. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. MONICA GAGLIANO: Or would just be going random? Seasonally. And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. It's like a bank? They can't photosynthesize. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we dig into the work of evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever . That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. The problem is is with plants. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. The Douglas fir became diseased and -- and died. So I don't have a problem. And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. I don't know yet. To remember? Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't ROBERT: I know, I know. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. ROBERT: What kind of minerals does a tree need? Let him talk. I mean, Jigs was part of the family. I don't want that.". That's what she says. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. No boink anymore. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? Is it, like -- is it a plant? It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. SUZANNE SIMARD: You know, I don't completely understand. And so of course, that was only the beginning. I was like, "Oh, my God! You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. And we saw this in the Bronx. A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso, enough of that now. ROBERT: That is correct. This is Roy Halling, researcher specializing in fungi at the New York Botanical Garden. That apparently -- jury's still out. Annie McWen or McEwen ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell, Arianne Wack ], [ALVIN UBELL: Pat Walter and Molly Webber. Are you bringing the plant parade again? This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. Wait a second. I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. ROBERT: It turns that carbon into sugar, which it uses to make its trunk and its branches, anything thick you see on a tree is just basically air made into stuff. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. They shade each other. Yes. They would salivate and then eat the meat. Fan first, light after. Well, it depends on who you ask. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. WHRO is Hampton Roads' local NPR / PBS Station. As abundant as what was going on above ground. Salmon consumption. Anyone who's ever had a plant in a window knows that. LARRY UBELL: It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk and there's always a puddle at the bottom. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. Give it to the new -- well, that's what she saying. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, we turn our brain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. These guys are actually doing it." ROBERT: Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. And a little wind. So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. What happened to you didn't happen to us. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? ROBERT: So let's go to the first. Ring, meat, eat. It's a costly process for this plant, but ROBERT: She figured out they weren't tired. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. They need light to grow. The bell, the meat and the salivation. It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. ROBERT: And this? They can go north, south, east, west, whatever. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, that seems to be what happens. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. It's a -- it's a three-pronged answer. It was a simple little experiment. Yeah, plants really like light, you know? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. Same as the Pavlov. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. [laughs]. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? I do want to go back, though, to -- for something like learning, like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dogs is expecting. So he brought them some meat. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. JAD: If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? Fan, light, lean. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. They're switched on. But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. ROBERT: Jennifer says that what the tubes do is they worm their way back and forth through the soil until they bump into some pebbles. And of course we had to get Jigs out. Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see. This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. Like, as in the fish. And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. Parsons' Observational Practices Lab Talking About Seeing Symposium. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Exactly. I'll put it down in my fungi. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. Yeah. Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. ROBERT: They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. Thud. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. Just a boring set of twigs. It didn't seem to be learning anything. No. And it can reach these little packets of minerals and mine them. These guys are actually doing it." ROBERT: And we dropped it once, and twice. -- they spring way up high in the air. JAD: Would you say that the plant is seeing the sun? ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. They can't take up CO2. And I do that in my brain. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just going to run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? And it begins to look a lot like an airline flight map, but even more dense. I mean again, it's a tree. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. They still did not close when she dropped them. I've always loved Radiolab. JAD: That apparently -- jury's still out. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. That's amazing and fantastic. That's okay. JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. But we are in the home inspection business. She actually trained this story in a rather elaborate experimental setup to move away from the light and toward a light breeze against all of its instincts. Ring, meat, eat. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. That is correct. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. Nothing delicious at all.". The fungi needs sugar to build their bodies, the same way that we use our food to build our bodies. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Do its reflex defense thing. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. SUZANNE SIMARD: Potassium and calcium and ROBERT: Like, can a tree stand up straight without minerals? Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. SUZANNE SIMARD: No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. So let's go to the first. I mean, I think there's something to that. So otherwise they can't photosynthesize. ROBERT: And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. But that day with the roots is the day that she began thinking about the forest that exists underneath the forest. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? ROBERT: He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. JENNIFER FRAZER: Well, maybe. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. JAD: That is cool. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. ], And Alvin Ubell. So the -- this branching pot thing. Well, I asked Suzanne about that. I mean, it's a kind of romanticism, I think. Listen to Radiolab: Smarty Plants, an episode of Wilderness Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. Why waste hot water? ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. The problem is is with plants. So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. That is definitely cool. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. Just the sound of it? Robert, I have -- you know what? So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured ROBERT: It'll cry out in a kind of chemical way. SUZANNE SIMARD: Not a basset hound, but he was a beagle. It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. Oh, well that's a miracle. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH: It's the equivalent of a human being jumping over the Eiffel Tower. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. Robert, I have -- you know what? As soon as we labeled them, we used the Geiger counter to -- and ran it up and down the trees, and we could tell that they were hot, they were boo boo boo boo boo, right? Just a boring set of twigs. MONICA GAGLIANO: I created these horrible contraptions. Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. ROBERT: She says what will happen under the ground is that the fungal tubes will stretch up toward the tree roots, and then they'll tell the tree SUZANNE SIMARD: With their chemical language. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. ROBERT: This happens to a lot of people. Plants are amazing, and this world is amazing and that living creatures have this ability for reasons we don't understand, can't comprehend yet." Two very different options for our plant. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. JENNIFER FRAZER: And he would repeat this. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. The plants would always grow towards the light. I don't know yet. The little threads just wrapping themselves around the tree roots. Or even learn? JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. But let me just -- let me give it a try. Absolutely not. [ASHLEY: Hi. Smarty Plants Radiolab | Last.fm Read about Smarty Plants by Radiolab and see the artwork, lyrics and similar artists. Does it threaten my sense of myself or my place as a human that a plant can do this? If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. He's the only springtail with a trench coat and a fedora. JENNIFER FRAZER: So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. Or even learn? ROBERT: And so now we're down there. ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. And it begins to look a lot like an airline flight map, but even more dense. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. So we went back to Monica. So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. He was a -- what was he? And again. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. I was, like, floored. So I don't have a problem. Yeah, mimosa has been one of the pet plants, I guess, for many scientists for, like, centuries. Ring, meat, eat. She's working in the timber industry at the time. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah. Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. And all of a sudden, one of them says, "Oh, oh, oh, oh! And Jigs at some point just runs off into the woods, just maybe to chase a rabbit. ROBERT: Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. There was some kind of benefit from the birch to the fur. You know, they talk about how honeybee colonies are sort of superorganisms, because each individual bee is sort of acting like it's a cell in a larger body. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. This is the headphones? And when I came on the scene in 19 -- the 1980s as a forester, we were into industrial, large-scale clear-cutting in western Canada. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. And so why is that? You do. Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. Like, two percent or 0.00000001 percent? Because tree roots and a lot of plant roots are not actually very good at doing what you think they're doing. So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. ROBERT: All right, never mind. Is that what -- is that what this? It just kept curling and curling. ALVIN UBELL: And I've been in the construction industry ever since I'm about 16 years old. But over the next two decades, we did experiment after experiment after experiment that verified that story. I thought okay, so this is just stupid. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! Let me just back up for a second so that you can -- to set the scene for you. Well, it depends on who you ask. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. Or maybe slower? Same as the Pavlov. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. ROBERT: And it's in that little space between them that they make the exchange. Picasso! Yeah, it might run out of fuel. You got somewhere to go? ROBERT: It's kind of -- it's shaped like MONICA GAGLIANO: Like the letter Y, but upside down. No. No question there. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. If there was only the fan, would the plant After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! Into which she put these sensitive plants. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. Like the bell for the dog. ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. Like, as in the fish. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. The fact that humans do it in a particular way, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to do it in that way to be able to do it in the first place. ROBERT: She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. ROBERT: This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. So this Wood Wide Web, is this just, like, the roots? She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? Couple minutes go by SUZANNE SIMARD: And all of a sudden we could hear this barking and yelping. So we went back to Monica. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. Wait. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? ROBERT: say they're very curious, but want to see these experiments repeated. JENNIFER FRAZER: And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: With help from Amanda Aronczyk, Shima Oliaee ], [LARRY UBELL: Niles Hughes, Jake Arlow, Nigar Fatali ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Phoebe Wang and Katie Ferguson. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Well, I asked Suzanne about that. LARRY UBELL: It's not leaking. Again. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. This is the fungus. ROBERT: After three days of this training regime, it is now time to test the plants with just the fan, no light. MONICA GAGLIANO: I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. ], Maria Matasar-Padilla is our Managing Director. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? LATIF: It's like a bank? PETER LANDGREN: Look at that. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Just the sound of it? And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Walker Wolff.
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